Despite the rather dark topics, Ditto was very easy to talk to, and our discussion was frequently interspersed with laughter. In accordance with her music, Ditto has an effervescent energy to her that seems to lift even her doubts and fears out of stagnant inactivity. Unfortunately we were cut off (probably better considering we had surpassed the allotted time slot) so we were unable to bring our exchange to a clear close – but it was a great chat all the same. We started with a glance to the past before we settled into the present.
So, Beth, you’ve started this tour celebrating the 10th anniversary of Music For Men: first things first, what does it feel like to play these songs now, compared to when you first wrote them? Has your relationship to the music or to your performances changed in any way?
To be honest I feel like it’s the same, I don’t feel like I’ve grown a lot in relation to music or as a musician. I give people what they want to hear! I don’t consider myself an artist like Nick Cave or Yoko Ono, I’m more of a people pleaser. To me, playing a gig to fans, where it’s all new music and the audience doesn’t really know what they’re getting, well to me that’s really self-indulgent. Not to judge other people for it or anything, it’s just not what I do.
Still, I just re-listened to “Standing in the way of control” and it teleported me back to watching Skins [British TV Show] where I first heard it. What an absolutely iconic song though – do you feel nostalgic playing it now? Does it feel weird playing music you wrote at the beginning of your career?
Ohh thank you! But yeah it does feel nostalgic, getting back together, it feels super nostalgic, like: “Woah, Gossip is 20 years old this year, it’s so crazy!”
When you think about it, we’re playing songs we played when we were 18 and now we’re 38! We were playing really crazy places in Germany and none of us really let it sink in, and it was and still is pretty surreal, sharing that nostalgia has been really funny actually.
It’s been 7 years since your band went on hiatus – have the dynamics changed at all?
I mean I never stopped touring, and although I did other stuff with other people I never let Gossip go. Everyone’s all like: “Oh my god, we’re going out on tour again!” but I never stopped, I know that Chris has other groups, Hannah has a band or two, and I think Nathan does as well but I was always on tour. It was a bit uncomfortable at the beginning but really, it’s like you put on this old pair of shoes and they just fit, like it’s the same as it always was.
None of us are better people or better musicians… I mean none of us really learned how to be real musicians in the first place apart from Hannah, who was always taking classes and learning to be better, and then Nathan and I would come in and just ruin it completely!
When the band split, you parted ways and there was quite the division in opinion. Have your views realigned at all now that you’re touring together?
Not really, no. I mean it’s hard to relate to Nathan and he’s still on his trip, he went back to Arkansas, which is where I’m from. I was just there the other day but there’s only so many trucks with Trump stickers on them I can take really. There’s a reason I only go back once a year, like I can’t wait to get back to my little liberal bubble!
But to be honest, you try to be supportive of each other and that’s all that matters. Everyone needs something and we all just try to support each other in that. If Nathan needs something, Hannah and I try to support him in that, if Hannah needs something we try to support her. You can’t live in this world and ask for people to be respectful of you, if you can’t be respectful of them. You have to try to live your life without seething with hatred or being depressed all the time, and you do that by trying to see the best in people, it’s all you can really do. You can’t relate to everything or everyone but you can still support them.
That’s really great though, I think a lot of bands split because they weren’t able to do just that. It can be really difficult to go out in the world when there seems to be so much going wrong…
I mean definitely I agree, sometimes I just don’t want to go out of the house and my partner would say I should and I would feel better… and you know, I really didn’t want to go out, but I do and I do feel better. Because if you don’t leave the house, then you don’t get anything done, and you don’t participate in life and it passes you by. Not participating in life is the biggest fear there is, you know?
Speaking about struggles, you have mentioned before that you sometimes feel anxious about shows or rather, meet-and-greets specifically. How do you cope with this?
I think really I’m just trying to be confident in who I am. In terms of the meet-and-greets, I just don’t really understand why people would want to meet me! Unless you want me to tell you about some sweet crochet tips. I don’t think it’s low self-esteem or anything but just something human, I just don’t think I’m anything special really. And then there’s always this uncomfortable dynamic that comes with this strange hierarchy, like it’s just weird, you know? I imagine Kurt Cobain must have been so confused all the time when everything was going on round him.
I spoke to Blythe Pepino [of Mesadorm] the other week and she talked about how we have this tendency to really separate musicians from the rest of society in a way that can be unhealthy and unproductive, or unhelpful for everyone, in a kind of isolating way. Would you agree?
Yeah I mean totally! And you know, it’s also just not any fun really.
When it comes to your music, well, you produced songs that were politically important in their own right when they came out. How do you feel performing them now, in this atmosphere?
I mean in the Obama era things were feeling calm and much more relaxed, and you could take a breath. And well we took a breath that lasted 8 years, we had a break, and of course it wasn’t perfect, it’s politics, but it just felt safe, and now all of a sudden it’s just worse than it ever was. The backlash is so huge and I find myself thinking: “Oh my god is this really happening”? Like the whole stuff about abortion and the military ban on trans people… Then I think about the 90s and that was a crazy period too, like “Don’t ask don’t tell” and we overturned that. But it’s strange to think that’s something you wrote in your 20s still being important, actually more important now. I remember being asked to play the song at Stella McCartney’s party just before the election, and I didn’t know if it was necessary at the time, but after the results I was like “I need to do this, even if it’s just for myself” and during the show, I mean you could just feel it in the air, you know? I mean there are things going down your end as well!
Oh my god, I know. I regularly go between wanting to be informed and depressed or just trying to stay ignorant but that never feels like the right thing either. The more you know the scarier it all seems…
I don’t really know what to do either… I’m either educated and angry and afraid, or I say: “It’s out of my hands” and when it’s time to partake then I will, but that doesn’t seem to be right either! I think when you’re mentally able and aware, and strong enough, then you need to get involved, but you can’t always be like that. That’s what a community is for, that’s what friends are for, so you can duck in and out. You don’t need to be there 100% of the time, you can’t be, and it took me a while to learn that.
I sometimes worry that any kind of writing or advocating, in terms of articles, that they’re read by people who either already agree with me or just want to disagree, and that there’s no point. Since a lot of your music is political, are you hopeful it will reach the right people, or do we risk preaching to the converted?
You have to remember; sometimes it’s okay to write things for people who agree with you, because you’re empowering them. You’re not always here to change minds, but to keep the momentum going! You might not change some jerk’s mind, but you might inspire someone to vote, or to volunteer, or to write an article, or to speak out and you do have to look at it like that.
That’s how I think about what I do, like when I posed nude for those different magazines, people used to ask me “But what will people think of you?” And really it’s none of my business what those people think of me, but hopefully some people will see it, and think: “That’s what I look like” and it’s normalised. We are normal, we are the majority and that’s the norm.
We’re not doing it to change people’s minds. Some people get pissed off, and there are some who love to get under your skin – you know those trolls, people who have no power in other parts of their lives who feel like this is the only place they can exert some – that’s not what it’s about. It’s about keeping people motivated and educated. It’s about empowerment, really. That’s what art is for.
Are music and politics always intertwined? Does it always have to mean something, or is it just inevitable, do you think?
Some songs may not mean anything to someone, but everything to someone else. It depends on how people identify with it. Once you’re done with a song and put it out in the world, then it’s out of your control, it’s out for interpretation, and that’s all. Other people will have completely different relationships with it.
It’s not even always about intention, I think artists for the most part have some kind of need to express themselves, from some kind of otherness, and they have no other place to go to do it. Like me, I wouldn’t be able to be a doctor, or a teacher, are you crazy? But this I can do. When there is a sense of otherness it often connects you to empathy, or other marginalised people.
I mean there will always be music that’s about nothing really, like Kid Rock? Who cares about him? Go and hold Ted Nugent’s hand and run off into the sunset! No one will remember them! No one will care! They will always remember Yoko Ono or Kurt Cobain or, I don’t know… but this sense of otherness they tap into, it will always bring people together. People always want to feel connected to the bigger picture and someone like Kid Rock just doesn’t do that.
Considering the current social, political and cultural climate, what would you suggest are good words to live by? A good way to get through everything that’s currently going down?
Go easy of yourself – there’s so much we want to do and so much we want to get done, and personally I feel overwhelmed and a bit beat down. Everything is so big and everything is always so important. But you know, every contribution that you’re making to resistance is super important, that’s what I try to keep in mind. And it’s hard, especially when we’re staring things like racism and gun control in the face, but every bit of effort goes a long way. Sleep when you can, do what you can, and if you feel like sleeping all day then do that. There are people out there who do feel the same way as you, and it’s okay.
It is very easy to feel like no matter what you do is not enough!
Yeah and that’s the thing about psyche, it’s about intellectual warfare. It’s about the brain. I really think it’s when we let it get into our brains then we let it defeat us from the inside, and I’m not trying to go all conspiratorial here. But especially when you see all the infighting on the left and it feels like there’s no way to win, and the right wing people seem to know exactly what they want. We have this big umbrella and there are a lot of people to nurture and to help underneath, and sometimes we’ll just have to agree to disagree and there are bigger fish to fry… and I don’t really know how to do that.
Does your music help you feel empowered when you’re feeling kind of hopeless then?
Music makes me feel… I don’t know, I’ve never thought: “Music is my first love”. I’ve always thought connecting with people is, and that’s the part I love. I don’t love touring but I love playing shows. Touring is hard, especially on your body, and when you’re in a different country every day, it’s hard to stay grounded. For me it’s about being connected, and music gives me that. I don’t even think I really sing that well but I really connect with people.
With music, I love listening to it, way more than I like making it. I mean I can write a song, I don’t find it hard to make music, but it’s hard to do it for money. It’s hard to not to care about what people think but then to have to care about what they think for your job.
My friends hate getting in to these discussions with me because everything just devolves into me shouting “IT’S CAPITALISM! IT’S THE PATRIARCHY!” but it is! There’s that saying “do what you love for a living and then you’ll never have to work a day in your life” but I’m not sure I believe that…
But it is capitalism! I always say that too, it really is! You can’t say “Money is the root of all evil” and not include capitalism in that.
And yeah, that is bullshit! More like, do what you love as a job and then slowly watch your passion deplete. No, I mean it’s not quite like that but I’ve seen that quote on a postcard or something and it’s bullshit.
